on 2023年4月19日
By your rationale, the "everlasting life" Jesus promised really only meant life until AD 70. According to the Jewish scholar David Kimhi (c. 1160-c. 1235 C.E. A shorter one, posted at Grace to You: Is Hell Really Endless? "WHEN your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. We seem to just read right past those verses. Jude says Sodom and Gomorrah undergo vengeance in "eternal fire", and Ezekiel says that Sodom and her daughters will one day be restored to their former estate. He quotes: Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. "Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment?". To die and go hell is being separated from God and since Jesus said, And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (Matt 25:46). And again, the worms and fire are figurative the real "punishment" (actually not so much a punishment but the consquence of one's decision) is having missed the last opportunity to be part of God's kingdom. ", Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, SODOM AND HER DAUGHTERS SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.". In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council. I haven't memorised all the conciliar canons and anathemata but I think neither have you. And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. The case may have been overstated, but may not be completely wrong. He is not being literal here", "He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man.". Gey Ben Hinnom Stream. The quotation begins in verse 22. En contraire. The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. He wrote: In these gardens, lying partly within the mouth of Hinnom and partly in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and irrigated by the waters of Siloam, Jerome assigns the place of Tophet; where the Jews practised the horrid rites of Baal and Moloch, and burned their sons and their daughters in the fire. It was probably in allusion to this detested and abominable fire, that the later Jews applied the name of this valley (Gehenna), to denote the place of future punishment or the fires of hell. But there isn't evidence to support this idea. You brought up a very good point. You would think this would have been addressed early on if the case was clear cut and universal salvation was heresy. Gehenna In Hebrew Scriptures After the Baylonian exile (6 th cent BCE) A garbage dump in a deep narrow valley outside the wall of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse. At least until a council comes along decades later and says that anyone not confessing a belief in an "eternal hell" is not a Christian? Rome? 2:8 for additional contextual support. Concerning this valley, I've heard that the blood of sacrificed Passover lambs ran down this hillside. Gehenna as a Garbage Dump? Your quiet deliberations and considerations are refreshing and leave me with hope and joy, is this not the work of the Ekklesia? It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. The moth does die. The Gray Waste of Hades, also known as the Gray Waste, was an Outer Plane in the Great Wheel cosmology model, home of the daemons. In order to do that, the person must be either present or at least given the opportunity. Paul turned a Christian over to satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH. Will those who survive not be able to believe that they are really safe until they go out and look at the corpses of those who persecuted them and cast them out? Salvation does not have to be eternal. After the Jews returned from the Babylonian exile, the valley became a garbage dump where anything considered unclean was placed. Does no one know about the millennium, a period of teaching, after which satan is loosed for a season to test those that followed him in the first earth age. Not necessarily. That's why Jerome translated it aeternam in Latin as well, because he knew what was implied by the Greek. When Jesus spoke of Gehenna, his hearers would think of the valley of rotting, worm-infested garbage, where the fire always burned, smoke always lingered, and if the wind blew just right, a smell that sickened the sense wafted in the air. (pp. Scholars have long claimed that Gehenna was a garbage dump where fires were burned. Bell says, Gehenna, in Jesus's day, was the city dump People tossed their garbage and waste into this valley. On three occasions, gehenna is paired with (G4442, pyr, "fire") to read "hell fire" (Matthew 5:22; Matthew 18:9; Mark 9:47). Everything is all tied together in one. New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. Is that decree retroactive?". Gehenna was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem. You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. As for Mark 9:44, if you look at Isaiah 66:24 you will see it is bodies that are being eaten by 'worms' and fire. Hades, the Gray Waste of NE Gehenna, the Bleak Eternity of NE, LE The Nine Hells (of Baator) LE Acheron, the Infinite Battlefield of LN, LE Mechanus, the Clockwork Nirvana of LN Arcadia, the. I like how you responded to the (?I guess they are unbelievers) in the comments. Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside. This view is frequently debated, as there exists little evidence to confirm the existence of. By Jesus' time, the Valley of Hinnom was a full fledged garbage dump with its wretched rotting aromas, howls of scavenging wild animals, and smoldering and perpetual fires. Obviously, this fire is not still burning today, so this fire had an "age to come" or better put a "forever result" quality to it vs. a duration quality to it. Still, that's no basis for any claims about how eternal does not mean eternal or how undying fire/worms suddenly mean dying-only-later fire/worms. Theres nothing before that. You are also disrespectful towards the damned it is one thing, as God does, to give them their just deserts, but quite another to simply blot them out from existence and pretend everything's fine. It is retributive and vindictive. ), the valley was later transformed into a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem. Dead animals and bodies of executed criminals would be put there along with all trash. If you look at the political and religious power struggles going on at Constantinople it is apparent that the doctrine of eternal hell was used to scare people and get them to submit to those who had control of the church, so they could hold their kingdom together. I am disturbed by the anger and name-calling of the resident I am sure he will give the usual excuses. Blot them out of existence? If they contradict e.o., they contradict e.o. Romans 5:18-21 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. It differs from the neutral-leaning Sheol as Gehenna was considered a type of waiting room; the longest one can be there is 11 or 12 months with few exceptions. Click the card to flip . First, you still seem to think you are in a position to lecture Christ on how to conduct his affairs. You clearly havened thought the whole matter through and would trade in salvation for 20th century sensibilities. The breath of the Lord, like a torrent of brimstone, kindles it. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will.]. From "The Fires of Gehenna: View of Scholars" by Todd Bolen, "The first is Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. Unless otherwise noted, the posts are written by Todd Bolen, PhD, Professor of Biblical Studies at The Masters University. In Luke 16:26 Abraham explains why he can't send Lazarus to the rich man with a few drops of water. What church are you talking about? All who accept it. My time, unfortunately, is limited too. Gregory Nazianzen and Gregory of Nyssa, both staunch universalists, recognized by the eastern and western churchs as 'saints', played prominent roles at the council of Nicea. This practice was carried out . This article is more additional proof against the doctrine of eternal torment. God is not a torturer. And as you know from experience, a dump without flies is a dump without garbage. Finally, you are also mistaken about time and the eternal life. If 'aeturnum' always means 'eternal' then Jerome put his foot in his mouth when he wrote this. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. And nowhere did either Christ or any Apostle ever teach that. No, it means the valley pictured is no longer a steep ravine because it became a landfill, and today is a city park. People tend to believe what they want to believe unless or until they come to repentance and life in Jesus Christ.. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats. From the reign of Josiah onward, it was used as a garbage dump where the fires burned the refuse continuously. Nice work. It was a sanitation dump because the city of Jerusalem was above the valley and the filth was allowed to flow into the valley. God is much more forgiving than that. It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation. About the other direction he didn't ask. I find it interesting that people use the ideas they have been taught about 'hell' being eternal and transfer that to a symbolic statement that Jesus made about worms and fire. It is one of a number of alignment-based Outer Planes that form part of the standard Dungeons & Dragons ( D&D ) cosmology, used in the Planescape , Greyhawk , and some editions of . McBride has more details and the sources in his post. That part of the verse could be left off and the last part of the verse would be sufficient to finish answering why the rich man's request could not be granted. This is then used as an example of a future judgment. I'm sure there will come forth a brilliant solution to this apparent contradiction that will make it disappear. It is translated "hell" every time. and rules called canons. There were some that believed in such things but they all went into trouble with it. Specifically, Bailey states: [Kimchi] maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. This gate in the southern part of the wall lead to the Hinnom Valley. For more details, see copyright information. Because the church is not a "club for solving real and apparent biblical contradictions", it is not a "bible study club". At the same time, I hope you will believe me that the vast majority of Christians you believe in things like eternal salvation and damnation are not motivated by any joy in seeing other people suffer but by respect for Christ's teaching, Christ's judgement and for other people's freedom of choice. . A Christian in error is still a Christian.]. Not unlike the fire of 2 Thes. Mark 9:45. This is talking about a place where the worms do not die, (?the flesh is never fully consumed) and the fire is not quenched. Not necessarily TO those in the fire, possibly TO OTHERS ABOUT THOSE in the fire if they are already in it, they don't need examples. Therefore, this valley, this Gehenna, was a detestable place to God's people. "the worm never dies" how do you turn never into "sometime in the future"? The purpose is to build your discernment when people say bibley things, and not let evangelical historical sound bites lead you to repeat them. I believe research indicates sometimes during the festivals the priests in the Temple waded in blood up to their ankles, and underground passages carried the blood of all kinds of sacrificed animals down into the Kidron Valley on the east side of the city where farmers there purchased it to use as fertilizer. 7:32-33). That wouldn't happen until the 6th century. Where is the record of an uproar over them? PS. There is no biblical support for this, neither is there any literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods to suggest this. Then he mentions the case of those who would cross from the place of suffering over to "Abraham's bosom". It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught. If it is Isaiah, then you cannot take this prophet to invalidate what Christ himself taught. The word Gehenna was the Greek transliteration of g-ben-hinnom (the valley of the sons of Hinnom), an actual geographical site in Jerusalem named after a real person. For all those who think that the 2 times eternal in Mat.25:46 must be the same is talking nonsense,in 5 other verses it also happens and in those it cannot be the same at all.Romans 16:25-26 and Titus 1:2 and Galatians 1:4-5 and Ephesians 3:9-11 and 1 Timothes 6:17-19 So how you explain that hell is pagan nonsense God is love!!! Required fields are marked *. If ALL will be made alive than any passage referring to future punishment MUST be viewed in light of that fact. However, the word simply means the Valley (heb. The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. Isaiah 30:33 (HCSB) Indeed! Rubbish, bones, decaying. So your attitude "If the Lord had wanted to communicate this" is not only arrogant towards him (he chose his words as he saw fit, not you) but also false: he did clearly communicate this. You cannot base yourself on the supposed "true" meaning of a word Jesus used while at the same time ignoring that he also spoke of eternal punishment. According to Chan and Sprinkle "The first reference we have to the Hinnom Valley, or Gehenna, as a town dump is made by a rabbi named David Kimhi in a Commentary, which was written in AD 1200." We should also note that there is no archeological evidence of Gehenna as a garbage dump. And just like all garbage dumps, there were worms. the creed), negative condemnations ("Whosover says . It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and of jthe daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. 9:28 or was that Is. ), "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.". But the old Jerusalem had a "dung gate", where the trash was taken out of the city. When a fire is not quenched it burns UNTIL IT RUNS OUT OF FUEL. There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. What is supposed to come after salvation? I cannot vouch for Jerome, his meaning or his wording. Because the Hinnom and Kidron Valleys are located on the southeast side of Jerusalem, the prevailing winds carry the winds away from the city. Later transformed into a garbage dump where the trash was taken out of FUEL was a detestable place God. 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